Navigating Existential Dread and Finding Meaning Together 🌪️🙏

00:00:01
Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian Podcast. I'm doctor James Spencer, and through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now onto today's episode of Thinking Christian. He called to make a difference in mental health. Columbia International University offers graduate counseling degrees that combine professional excellence with Biblical truth from associates. Through doctoral program, CiU prepares you to bring healing and wholeness to others through a biblically based framework of compassion and care. Whether it's their k CREP accredited Masters in Clinical Counseling or their PhD in counselor Education and Supervision, You'll learn from experience faculty who integrate faith with real world application to cultivate a Kingdom impact through disciples who counsel, teach, and train. Whether you're starting your journey or advancing your career, CiU's counseling programs equip you to serve others both professionally and spiritually. Visit CiU dot edu to learn more about making a difference in mental health through Christ centered education. That's CiU dot edu. Hey everyone, and welcome to this episode of Thanking Christian and doctor James Spencer and I'm joined by doctor Bed Matthew. Ben is a professor of counselor education at Columbia International University, and we're continuing our conversation about faith and mental health today and we're going to be talking about the second leg of the stool that we've been talking about, so we've addressed one of them so far. We talked a little bit about the social leg of school that stool in the last couple of episodes, and now we're going to move into the existential leg. This idea of shared meaning making and what is that and how does that relate to mental health? So Ben, welcome back, Thanks for being here.

00:02:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, always great to be with you, James.

00:02:02
Speaker 1: Ben's having a little existential crisis on this episode, just to let everybody know. He's in the midst of a tornado warning and so we may hear sirens blaring or you know, windows crashing in, but he's braving the elements to be on the show with us today. So appreciate that, brother, absolutely.

00:02:16
Speaker 2: As I said to James earlier, if this helps your views and likes, I'm there for man.

00:02:24
Speaker 1: That's what shared meaning making is really all about, its views, and like, this is where we find meaning today, and so if you could help me out with that, that would be fantastic. So we're really talking to I think this is an interesting topic because I was just sitting around actually thinking about this last night, and you know, I have so much going on in life, and everything's kind of good, like it's all good stuff. But within the busyness, there are these moments where I find myself combating the idea that none of it matters, right, that it's none of none of it's good enough, that you're not really having any impact, that you're not really doing anything particularly important. And maybe that's all true. It's just I'm not sure it really matters. And so there's a sense in which, you know, I feel like this this sort of baseline anxiety is sort of seeping in a lot of areas. I'm certainly feeling it at certain points, and it just feels like, you know, in those moments, I have to sort of reset my understanding of what we're doing here, like what is really our meaning, our purpose, our general sense of what matters in life. How do you encounter that sort of in your own life maybe, but also in your practice.

00:03:43
Speaker 2: No, yeah, I'll start with the second one. I can recall actually dealing with clients. You know, again, whenever they first come in, it's usually some kind of mood disorder, depression, anxiety, and we kind of unpack some of the realities, and after we spend some time together, after they feel a little more comfortable with me. I've had a couple of clients come to this point in the counseling. I'll give you the phrase that I often hear, I'm angry at God for my existence. I'm angry at God for my existence. So that's more than just I'm having marriage problems. That's more than just I'm feeling really depressed about this life situation, which is there as well. But as they process this stuff in their life, it gets to this larger level, this this other other engagement that is so much more about them, to this larger existential kind of thing. And the response that sometimes come is because of all this stuff that's happening here. There's this frustration, this anger, this bitterness against not just God, but the God who would allow my existence to be a reality that's having to deal with all this, and there's this significant shift in what we're then doing in the counseling that again, I don't want to ignore the life's circumstances. And I think you're right. I think we all did. I know I do as well. Where you continue to put in effort day in and day out on whatever project or purpose that you're engaging with, and whether it's the lack of reciprocation, whether it's this disengagement from others, you just have a sense of like I'm not even doing this, Like I does not feel like an energy well spent, if not to the specific issue, just to the larger why even bother? But when I hear that in clients, that particularly that kind of not just frustration of the situation, but anger at existence. Most of my clients are Christians, and so it's directed theologically towards a person, but I've had other clients who are not religiously or and they'll just use the language I'm just angry at exists. I'm angry that I have to be here for this stuff. Yeah, so it may not be necessarily directed towards a creator, but it is still nevertheless frustrated that creates. I would say both some other opportunities, but to be honest, some real struggles too of how do we kind of then engage with that Accordingly.

00:06:24
Speaker 1: It's interesting. I don't know how many people can relate to this, and it may actually say something more about me than maybe I even want to admit. But I can remember in high school when I used to run. I don't really run that much anymore. I've decided that I wanted to get big enough that I would never have to run again. But when I used to run in high school, if it was windy out and I was running into the wind, it would really frustrate me because it's just it was just annoying. Here I am trying to run. I just want still air. I just want to be running down the road and the wind is like coming at It's like you know, blowing in your ears. You know, like everything about the wind just annoyed me. Right, It's just so frustrating to run when it was windy. I could do. I could run on the snow, I could run in the rain didn't bother me. And it was odd because it was only when I was running, like I used to bike all the time in Chicago, when snow rain never bothered me. When I was biking, right, running just infuriated. It was the most annoying thing I'd ever experienced. And occasionally, you know, when I when I'm in sort of a rut, I suppose, or you know, just just sort of one of those moments in life where you're just frustrated, I always think back to that running into the wind. That's how it feels. There's nothing to like, there's nothing to do with it. Right, the wind is the wind. You're not stopping the wind. There's there's no chance you're going to stop the wind. Do you either keep running into the wind or you stop. The wind ain't stopping, you know, And that's just something that's that's sort of how it feels. It's like, that's how that that It's the same feeling I get occasionally when I'm doing this work and I'm not really connected to any sort of meaning and you kind of you start to look around in my world. You know, it's some of its content creation, but a lot of it is just working with major donors or anything like that, where it's like it's clear that they don't think you're having enough impact, and so you know you're not big enough, You're not you know, reaching millions and billions of people. Yeah right, And so sometimes I feel really settled in the work and say, no, producing good work is the point, right, and that's it, and doing little things to help people that maybe go unnoticed is the important part. And then there's that whole other side of it where you start to feel like you're running into the wind. Yeah right, there's no way of changing these other trends, Like it just keeps coming at you and coming at you, and so I don't know that picture of running into the wind. That's what I think of when I think about this existential leg of the stool. It's this notion that you're never gonna stop, like life is just going to keep coming at you and you either just have to decide you're gonna keep going at it or just stop. Yeah.

00:09:16
Speaker 2: And there's something I'll say when I'm working with clients that get to that point who metaphorically are running against the wind as you said, there's something good about giving some space for that frustration, right that the way that I often say, it's not a great place to live, but I think we need to be willing to visit there and let the frustration have some space, have some voice, I think particularly in Christian circles, where again we do have an eschological hope. Yes, that's good and right, and we should move towards that. And yet again it's not without the real struggle of the moment, right, you know, to quote the preacher vanity of vanity of sorts. We feel the frustration of the in and out engagement, whether it's intellectual or physical or material, and at the end of the day, it's like grasping at things and you just feel the weight of existence that doesn't always go the way it should. I know, for me, one of the things I'm trying to do, both in the clinical context, if not for myself personally, is to give some space for that frustration rather than just trying to Okay, but what's the good news? And there is good news, don't be wrong. We should get there. But sometimes I think we just need to be willing to give people an opportunity to voice the frustration and just sit in it.

00:10:44
Speaker 1: For a while.

00:10:44
Speaker 2: That's not a common I do feel. Within my discipline particularly, we try to often shortcut the frustration to get to the healing. The healing's good, but we try to get their little too fast. Whether it is therapeutically, medically, whatever, digitally, however, we try to solve the discomfort. The discomfort is real and it's based on some real existential crisis. We need to give some space for it as needed.

00:11:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I'm you know, I mean, I'm a biblical studies geek. Right, So a lot of this comes down back to like interpretive frameworks for me, right, Like when I'm trying to work through some of these frustrations, and even when I'm to your point, just sitting in that frustration, there's a part of my brain that's always like, you just need to rethink this, you know, like your perspectives off right, And I know my perspective's off and so even as I'm taking some time to sort of sit in that frustration, I have that little itch in the back of my brain it's like, you just need to rethink this, Like some of these ideas that are rumbling around in your skull just aren't quite right, and there has to be this sort of shift that you make in order to get back to a place where you're recognizing that God uses people differently, that your life does have meaning and purpose, that God is working through you, and to the extent that you are willing to give up your self to him, He's going to do what he wants to do through you. I think sometimes I'm even trying to change the way I talk about that, because sometimes like God's going to do great things through you, not necessarily right, not necessarily right, and so you know, but I don't know when we think about that interpretive framework aspect, do you find that to be helpful or is that just me sort of importing my biblical studies into the into the realm of mental health?

00:12:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh my God, that's always not just a danger but a reality for all of us, whether like you, you're a scholar of biblical knowledge or anyone. There's always a danger of kind of forcing shoehorning in some of our perspectives if it's not truly helping. That being said, I will say similarly, the framework, I'll say for myself, the biblical theology framework has been an incredibly helpful lens to apply to my hermeneutics in that there's a greater meta narrative, greater story, and I'm not the center of it. Like when I hear you say how God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life. Well, yeah, those aren't untrue, but that phrase tends to put me at the middle of the story, and I'm like, a, right, well, maybe I'm not the of the story and that's actually a good thing, right.

00:13:46
Speaker 1: Yeah.

00:13:47
Speaker 2: My reframing of scripture in that light that the main story is not about me but about the person and work of God through the Sun and the administration of the Spirit. Interesting enough. That actually brings me more joy and meaning and purpose when I realize I'm not the center of the story, or as I've said it to some, I'm not it, but I get to be part of it.

00:14:10
Speaker 1: Yeah.

00:14:11
Speaker 2: Right, I do think there's something to take that framework and utilize. I have utilized that in certain clinical context because existential dread that that frustration of existence tends to be somewhat and I use the term more clinically egotistical, not as like a character deficiency, but in terms of very inwardly focused your frustration at your existence is about your existence, So in that sense, it's the true definition of yourself. Again, I want to give space for that. I want to give some opportunity to give voice. I think that the Psalms gives some ideas of the laments, right, that's an important part of the emotional experience of humans in response to the tragedy of situations and of life. At the same time, trying to not just center myself as the center of the story right helps for both Christians and non Christians. I've worked with Christians that it makes a little more sense, you know, theologically and foundationally, but it even works with clients that don't have a similar faith perspective when we help them kind of see, Okay, maybe you're not the center of the story. Maybe you're you're part of a story, whatever that may look like in their context. I have found some incredible help in that. Again, it does a couple of things. One, it relieves the pressure of having to then perform to that expectation. If I'm the center of the story, it all depends on me then. And if I don't get all the likes, if I don't get all the videos, if I don't get all the donors. If I don't get all the clients all, it puts so much pressure on me. When I'm the center of the story, or if I'm not the center of the story, it doesn't depend on me. And I mean theologically, this aligns a lot more with God's sovereignty over the situations of life. And two, it tends to then reorient how do I be part of the story, meaning how do I contribute to something greater than myself? This is where you know, not to get again too philosophical when we start getting into tellos right, the ideas of meaning making towards a created end that is not something I create myself, but is given to me. If I can help clients tap into that that much more, working towards something not inherently of themselves, that starts giving them significant hope in the midst of this existential dread that I think biblically, it works for my hermeneutics, personally, it works my faith, and even for non Christians it helps give them something beyond themselves to look forward to.

00:16:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, when I hear you talk about that, a couple of ideas came to mind. Number one is, you know, wanting not to jump to the fix. The head goes to Romans eight, right, where the Holy Spirit helps us express these groanings that we can't really comprehend. There's no fix there. It's how do we navigate from this broken existence that we're in in the moment to the glorified state where we know we're supposed to be in union with Christ. And there's no way for us to solve for that, like we don't even know what we're asking. We don't we can't comprehend how we go from where we are now to where we know we're going to be with Christ, and so there's no solve there. Like, that's this appropriate anxiety that we're feeling to some degree of not hopelessness, but a complete and utter lack of understanding of how to move from here to there. The only Spirit, Sorry, that's right, right, And so that that part where the Holy Spirit intervenes. I think when you're talking about like giving time for this sort of anxiety, just to sit, for this sort of discomfort, to just sit, that like that's the passage I go to. It's this idea that sometimes if we're continually trying to solve, we're not leaving this room for the groaning that that is inevitable for us, and for the work of the Holy Spirit to intercede in that space. And then the other side is sort of like a Jeremiah moment or Elijah in the Wilderness sort of moment moment right where there's this deep like, Lord, I'm done sort of flavor to it, and and God comes in and reframes for them. You know, with Elijah, it was man, I'm the only one left, Lord, and God's like, well, really, you're not really the only one left, you know. But God, in his graciousness still gives Elijah and out like he recognizes where Elijah is, gives him the comfort that there are these seven thousand other people aren't doing it. But then you see the transition then to Elisha, like a recognition that Elijah is at his limit. And I think that's sort of a beautiful picture, like there is this reframing that needs to happen. But then ultimately we're still dependent on the grace of God to sort of walk us through a lot of this stuff. Yeah, it's so there's just a couple of things that came to mind when you were so good. We're talking about those things.

00:19:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think about I mentioned the lament psalms in particular, right the Yeah, A good section of the Bible is essentially this language of poetry that in itself is an emotional expression of language and feeling and hope and suffering that even so much more, I mean, think about that Biblical theology lens that when Christ is on the cross, knowing his childhood and all the things he learned in the synagogue, and all the psalms that he probably read and knew and memorized, that at the greatest existential confrontation of his soul, he reaches for one of those lament psalms. Right, my God, My God, why have you forsaken me? Yeah, we can't begin to unpack the understanding of it, and yet we know it gives It gives it gives that opportunity, It gives language to the existential anxiety of the moment in a way that he's not chastised for it. He's he's not condemned, as it were, for even phrasing it that way, but he lets it sit it let's it gives it voice because Christ, in that moment recognized what the psalmist was doing and is able to appropriate that language in a way that I'll say, I'm in a clinical context when I'm sitting with clients, and when I hear them say when I try to give them that space, Yeah, to hear them say this is so good for me, thank you for just letting me get this out, like they're thankful, just for the chance to elucidate, just to give vocabulary to the struggle. Because in almost every other context, my marriage, my kids, my work, my church, whatever, I've got to look the part. There's this certain facade I have to present, and that's somewhat normative. Right, we can't go around as an e or kind of complex. And yet I do wonder to what degree, let me say this, even within the context of the local church, do we have space. Do we provide space, whether it's on Sundays, small groups, smaller context where we give people those Psalm twenty two opportunities.

00:21:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, of being able just.

00:21:51
Speaker 2: To voice, to articulate the hardship of the moment, knowing that there's still support. Right, what is it the times before that moment Jesus Christ Father forgive them. There's moments after where he says, Father, into your hands, I commit my spirit. The one time Jesus does not address God as Father is in that moment where he's quoting Psalm twenty two. Yeah, but it's nevertheless a real heartache in the midst of real support. I wonder how the church can actually replicate that reality, How in the midst of support we can still give voice to the lament that needs to happen.

00:22:31
Speaker 1: Yeah, it raises a question. I've been thinking about an awful lot with the local church and dealing with some of these issues. Right, you mentioned the telos before, Right, this sort of goal that we're shooting for, and sometimes it feels like, I mean, we we're pretty close while we're recording this, we're pretty close to just seeing the There was this whole kerfuffle with Kirk Cameron online where he supposedly did the whole annihilationalism thing, and then you know, you just saw the white blood cells of every other YouTuber kind of you know going in and like, no, this isn't right. And I was watching that happen and just I was like, this is reactive catechises. We should just know better in general, like how do we not know this? How do we not know this? How is the how have we gotten to a point where people feel the need to react in this way because they're concerned that other Christians aren't going to understand what's going on with this how do we get here? And part of me when when you're saying, like, let's provide this sort of lament, uh, the support with room for a lament, my concern is that we just haven't built ourselves, even early on to provide the appropriate constraints even allow that to happen. We've become a little too our boundaries have become too blurry, right, And so I'm not talking about it tight rigid. You know, you must believe in this exact thing, you know, like give them to Like that's not what I'm saying. But there is an interpretive framework, a grid, a teaching off, a sort of feel that would give everyone the boundaries to begin negotiating this in ways that are truly Christian in their thought process, as opposed to just oh man, this person seems to be breaking down. I think they need a counselor right now. That may be appropriate to identify at certain points, but other times you're just kind of sitting there, like why can't I just be here in the in the moment with a brother or sister who's really having a difficult time. I'm not sure we built ourselves to get there. That's interesting.

00:24:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, the realities. And I'll make this statement that's been made by much more qualified individuals than myself. I don't know if there's exactly a mental health support crisis as much as there is a lack of general community support. And what I mean by that is, you know, within the larger culture, we talked about the mental health crisis, and we don't have enough providers like myself, a licensed professional counseers, and so programs like ours here at CiU are just blowing up because so many people want to become counselors. Right again, I'm all for that. Obviously, that's my bread and butter, and so I'm all for that. Yeah, and yet I do wonder. Here's the example I would give. If you wake up in the morning with a headache, right, and if your first impulse is to call the local neurosurgeon. Okay, listen, you may need to get to that point, right, There may be some something really, but maybe get a drink of water first. Okay, let's bump it up to todd on all maybe you want to go take a walk or Okay, listen, you might need to call your general practitioner. Like, there's levels of support. Yeah, before you get to this individual that's at this level.

00:25:59
Speaker 1: I I kind of feel the analogy.

00:26:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, we've gotten to that point where you to what you're saying, James, we haven't developed the supports that should already be embedded in our contexts that we think, well, because I've got this problem over here, I got to go straight to the local expert. Hence we have this backlog of mental health providers who can meet the needs of the moment because so many people are calling the local neurosurgeon when probably what you need to do is get a glass of water. The glass of water is the local church, is the community of saints that has been built as a means of support. Are there times you may need some more clinical expertise help. Absolutely, there are levels that we can engage with that I think give as certain criteria to look at. But I do wonder to your point, is it is it have we failed in developing those early supports.

00:26:54
Speaker 1: It's it's harder.

00:26:55
Speaker 2: It's harder within a especially a Western context that is in a lot of ways more performative than supportive.

00:27:01
Speaker 1: When I'll say, like my wife and I got involved with foster care a few years ago, and just as we'd have kids come through, one of the things that I started formulating in my head, I'm like, we're a tent when they need a house.

00:27:18
Speaker 2: That's good.

00:27:18
Speaker 1: So a tent is important right when you're when you're out camping, Like, a tent has utility. There's nothing wrong with a tent, right, but it's got its own sorts of limitations. It's going to protect you for a while, but it's probably not your permanent shelter. And I was thinking to myself, like, we're a tent, right, and so there's only certain things you're going to be able to do as a tent, right, And so what's needed is at a house, right, a more permanent structure that is going to provide a different sort of stability. It's not going to be as mobile, it's going to be far more permanent. You think you're going to stay there much longer, Right, You're not just going to pick up a tent and go to you know, go to another ten or another ten or another tent. Tent's not gonna you know, the tent's gonna wear out well before a house. I think that analogy can apply into some of the things we've done on the local church too, in creating things like small groups and different things like that. Those to me are kind of like tents. They're they're these really important helpful arenas. They're not a house, yea. And so you almost have to have both, like these sojourning moments when you're sort of going around to a different small group, or even if you have a smaller community, stall group or something like that, these are still fairly impermanent, right. The church is what stands. The small group is is an extension of that church that may morph and change over time. You may have people move out of an area, you may you know, but the church is the structure. And so we've got to invest in that house, right and build some permanence, some stability, some real durable structures, and then allow the small groups to be the tense. Yeah, I think if we have tents without the structure, we're shorting ourselves. That's good, It's there's a million analogies we could use for that, but it's it's this idea that without the durable sort of baselines, you know, you could you could argue like a military metaphor and say, you know, without the sort of general orders, if you're sending soldiers out, they're not going to know what to do. And I think that's in part what we've got going on. It's this mismatch or asymmetry between durability, true mission, true goal, true understanding of God's word, a deep rooted understanding what it means to be a community. But we've still sent people out to execute on something that we haven't been sufficiently clear.

00:29:47
Speaker 2: On are ourselves. That's that's so good? Yeah, they And again we can go too far to be sure, right, And I think to some degree that is maybe what individuals like kunker Guard were trying to warn against, right that like, when you consider the organized church of his context and all the supports and pillars that they had, and he's he's trying to rage against the machine, as it were, and say, listen, there is this other element, this leap of faith that must be enamored that is not just because of the structures of the church. I think he was right to kind of, you know, be the Danish gadfly, that he was right in being the critique to the realities and yet the verse I was thinking, I think it's in one Timothy that the church is the pillar and buttress of truth. Right to use your analogy of a house. Yeah, my parents being from India when they moved to Canada, they saw, like all of our friends going tenting and camping. They're like, what, we came from a country that like is trying to avoid that? Why would you pay to be? Like camping was such an unknown reality for my household. I've done it all, like you know, I have friends. But to them it was it was that similar mindset, like what why would you willingly go outside to sleep on the ground when we've got this right?

00:31:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, like what is happening? Yeah?

00:31:18
Speaker 2: And and remember thinking through like there is something and we talked about this in our last episode. There is there is this responsibility the church has to make these not just supports but proclamations of truth so that when these real questions of existential dread do come, and they will come, and in some degree I think they should come. Right when we look at the world we're in, when we look at the constructs that are going on, the systems that are at play, I don't want to say, it's a good response, but I think it's a proper response for us to feel this dread, this existential difficulty in light of the realities around us, that that's a a right response in that sense.

00:32:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, that's why the church is so.

00:32:02
Speaker 2: Important and its proclamation, in its defense and its pillaring buttressing of truth as a means to give the community of God an opportunity to respond accordingly, not easily, but together. And I think that's another element of the social component that we've talked about.

00:32:19
Speaker 1: No, I get that. Yeah, it's almost like within the existential component there is an appropriate anxiety and that sort of tension that we feel living in a broken world. And yet what we need is we need the church to help us find sort of that non anxious present, to use Freedman's words, right at this moment where it's like, no, we're we're a self differentiated community enough that we understand why all of this is important. We're not denying and trying to pull away from the you know and say you shouldn't care about where you should get your next meal, or hey, if your bank accounts at zero, you don't need to worry about that, Right, That's not the point. The point is that these existential anxieties exists, they're real, they're many times appropriate for us to feel. But the church is helping us to avoid despair. It's anchoring us to a point where it's like, these existential anxieties can go this far, but no further. And now you have this backstop of the church saying no, we're here, We're here to help. We are your anecdote, we are your community, and you get through this together. I think that's kind of an important notion to your point, Like when you wake up with a headache, right, that church is triage. It isn't denying that there could be a situation that the church itself can't solve right, and that there might need to be additional expertise brought in, additional resource brought in, additional whatever brought in. But there needs to be this sort of baseline community that is helping to manage some of that. And if that's where we've lost, we need to rethink.

00:34:03
Speaker 2: We need to regain that ground.

00:34:05
Speaker 1: We need to regain that ground.

00:34:07
Speaker 2: There are a number of times in clinical counseling context when I'm working with an individual.

00:34:12
Speaker 1: One on one, Yeah.

00:34:13
Speaker 2: One very thankful that they're willing to see counseling too, that they've showed up and want to deal proactively with the struggles they have. I'm all for that, yeah, and yet at times there's part of me, especially if and when they are a believer, they have a faith community, that I'm thinking, Oh, man, I would love to just put you in a contact in a church, in a community that I think can address all these issues you're dealing with on my couch. I'm thankful you're on my couch, but man, I think it'd be so much better because not only is it just me giving an opportunity both for voicing and responding. Meaning is solidified in community, Right, we were looking for meaning and shared meaning in the contracts specifically of the church has an ability to to solidify it in ways that both encourage and challenge. Right, it's not just one on one, it's one with many, and that carries with it all kinds of frustrations too, that I've got to deal with a bunch of other people that aren't perfect like me, obviously, but right, nevertheless, so much better that the shared meaning creates actually greater strength and resilience in the midst of that existential dread.

00:35:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, well let's put a pin in it there. We'll talk on the next episode a little bit more about this idea of you know, sadness as a rational response and what does it really look like, because I think we're diving into it, we're getting the heart of this existential crisis and it does I think your point, meaning making occurs within community is a crucial aspect of this, and so let's continue this conversation in the next episode. But this has been great. Really appreciate you being here, Ben, and appreciate everybody listening. So we'll catch you on the next episode of Thinking Christian. Here. I just want to take a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com, you'll find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.